real men

[flinner]

Well said GLO_UNIT. The message that gay men are never real men is as offensively anti-gay as you can get.  I wrote to MATT777 or Miguel and stated this and they said I sent hate mail!!!! Imagine that! Talk about turning the tables around! Look, nobody's questioning bisexuality or sexua;lity changes throughout one's life, but for most people sexuality is fixed, especially men.  They seem to reinforce the belief that gay is bad, and IMPLAUSIBLE is their sales rep! Ugh.

[Admin]

Your response was labeled as hate mail because you took the opinions of one or two members on this site and attributed it to the site as a whole.  And in doing so, you declared this site to be anti-gay.  Maybe that's not "hate" in the strictest sense of the word, but it certainly is ignorance.

Some people believe that gay men are not real men.  That's a very extreme position that is not shared by most on this forum.  Nevertheless, those who feel that way are entitled to their opinion, just as you are.  We welcome your contributions to the discussion, but please look around and see that all different viewpoints are represented here.  Sometimes you're going to agree and sometimes you're not.  But outstraight.net has no official philosophy on any subject other than to affirm those who experience a coming out process that is the reverse of that which is generally applauded and celebrated.

[miguel700]

Hi, it's Miguel.  I don't think it was me who said anything about hate speech. That is not a topic I would be likely to address anyway.

Just because I, Miguel, feel more like a man with a woman doesn't mean someone else has to. I don't think for a minute that all gay men should be straight like the Religious Right does. What I have done is not for everybody.

At the same time I want to be respected because I have become attracted to the opposite sex, and in fact, I am turned on by women of size (another coming out process in itself, even for always hetero men).  I love my conversion process, and I love the conversion fantasies. I love relating to men non sexually. If that sounds like the Religious Right I can't help it. They are doing it for the wrong reason, I am doing it for the right reason. My evolution is real,  and I am grateful for it.

I have a couple gay friends who do understand this, and are not threatened by it. I don't feel they are real men.  At the same time if anyone of them approached me with feelings for the opposite sex I certainly would encourage them if I felt it was real.

Being Straight is Great, and I am not ashamed to say it.  Yeah, I like girls now.

[miguel700]

Yikes!  I meant to say "I don't think they are NOT real men".  Well some will see that as a Freudian Slip. Not my problem! Why can't we just all respect each other?  WHen I say that a men never turned me on the way a woman does now, I see no reason  why that should threaten anyone.

[BigDave]

I can only speak for myself.  I don't want to get into whether what I have to say represents the site or not.  My views are mine and mine alone.

That said, yes I do in fact believe that gay men are not complete men-- note I use the word "complete" rather than "real".  I know that's not politically correct and I'm really sorry it hurts your feelings but I spent about 10 years completely immersed in gay society.  I know what I'm talking about. I used to seek out very hyper-masculine, super "straight-acting" types.  But when I became more comfortable with my own masculinity, I became less interested in men and found women to be more attractive.  I think there is a direct link between being straight and being completely in touch with masculinity.   To me, being gay was about wanting something in someone else that I felt I lacked. 

[IWannaBeConverted]

I don't feel that gay men aren't really men, or are in anyway "broken" or inferior to straight men.  I honestly don't care if people think that I'm a "real man" either.  It seems totally irrelevant to me.  As I've explored my growing feelings for women, I've actually found that my own feminine qualities have helped me bond with them.

Nor do I believe that sexuality is subject to conscious choice, or can be changed by therapy or prayer or whatever.  All I can say is that at one point in my life, I was more attracted to men than to women.  Now I'm more attracted to women than to men.  This has been very confusing for me -- although I've had great fun trying to understand it!

I also know that I can't be an authority on other people's emotions or sexuality.  I'm scarcely an authority on my own.

I once identified as gay because I believed that my main attraction was to men.  I don't identify as gay anymore because it seems nonsensical to label myself that way when I'm currently more interested in women.  (I do identify as bisexual or "unlabeled" now).  I've been trying to find a way to work through this that is respectful to the gay community and true to my own experiences. (I've been terrified of doing anything that would help the ex-gays).

As for my nickname, no, I don't believe that totally gay men can be "converted" to heterosexuality.  It's meant in fun.  RealizingMyBisexualPotential is a bit too much of a mouthful.

[Peter]

I can only speak for myself.  I don't want to get into whether what I have to say represents the site or not.  My views are mine and mine alone.

That said, yes I do in fact believe that gay men are not complete men-- note I use the word "complete" rather than "real".  I know that's not politically correct and I'm really sorry it hurts your feelings but I spent about 10 years completely immersed in gay society.  I know what I'm talking about. I used to seek out very hyper-masculine, super "straight-acting" types.  But when I became more comfortable with my own masculinity, I became less interested in men and found women to be more attractive.  I think there is a direct link between being straight and being completely in touch with masculinity.   To me, being gay was about wanting something in someone else that I felt I lacked. 

I think there's a link but I also think today's culture is involved. I know a lot of straight men who aren't necessarily masculine. Over the years straight men have been more and more allowed to do what they once felt was unacceptable, like cry, or tell someone "I love you." But gay culture still seems to be schizophrenic and simultaneously make fun of men who are not masculine, yet immediately deride gay men who are masculine, either by treating them as a "Muscle Mary" caricature or by calling them self-loathing, or by labeling them as straight-acting.

I think gay men are always going to be very confused by how they should act and what they should be, especially since gay culture is often so visceral towards the idea of gay men desiring women. So you have to choose. And if it comes down to it, I think if most gay men were in that position, loving or wanting a woman, and were forced to choose, they would choose that over a community which ties them into knots.

[flinner]

I can only speak for myself.  I don't want to get into whether what I have to say represents the site or not.  My views are mine and mine alone.

That said, yes I do in fact believe that gay men are not complete men-- note I use the word "complete" rather than "real".  I know that's not politically correct and I'm really sorry it hurts your feelings but I spent about 10 years completely immersed in gay society.  I know what I'm talking about. I used to seek out very hyper-masculine, super "straight-acting" types.  But when I became more comfortable with my own masculinity, I became less interested in men and found women to be more attractive.  I think there is a direct link between being straight and being completely in touch with masculinity.   To me, being gay was about wanting something in someone else that I felt I lacked. 

                                                    Gay men are truly complete in that we have a powerful masculine/feminine gender balance that straight males sorely lack, rendering them  the typical "stiffs" that they are. Not to mention the trounble makers women and gay men know them to be. So please spare me the offensive accusation that we aren't complete. We ARE the real deal, not some terrified heterosexual the world builds up as the role model for all males.  Two-spirited is a term given gay people in many Native cultures and are accorded special status. It is we gay men that have a dual spirit/citizenship that truly completes us as men, with or without men or women in our sexual lives. Sound angry? You bet I am .  My superior nature is offended by the common evil and stupidity of the straight male majority.

[BigDave]

I'm sorry you take offense.  I really am.  I don't think that your gayness is a disease or something you should seek to change.  If you're comfortable with yourself, then so am I.  If your life is fulfilled as a proud gay man, then I'm very happy for you and glad that you will not have to go through what myself and others on this site have gone through.  But my opinions on the subject remain unchanged.

[IWannaBeConverted]

Flinner thinks gay men are superior?  Straight men are evil?  Stupid?  That's pretty bizarre and certainly bigoted.  Straight men are "stiffs?"  I've known some fascinating straight men and some really dull gay men.  Most of gay culture always struck me as totally uninteresting, even when I was sleeping with men.  Just because I find something uninteresting doesn't mean I believe it's inferior, though.

"Straight male majority?"  The majority of people are women. 

Why do you think straight men are stupid and evil?

[Admin]

Bigotry works both ways and exists in all groups.  I think it's somewhat hypocritical for flinner to come to this site with all guns blazing and accuse us all of bigotry because a couple of people say something he doesn't like but has no problem saying straight men are inferior.

[miguel700]

I wish everyone could understand something. Although some of us may sound like religious "ex gays" the difference is that I don't recommend my path to anyone who doesn't really feel it inside. The Religious Right things EVERYONE should be this way. Who am I to question anyone's happiness, as long as they are not hurting anyone. I

I DO feel more like a man than I did before. Other men have a different experience. After all, aren't there tons of life long men who were with women who discover their gay selves? So what's the big deal? Yes it may seem odd that I would need to "come out" in a very straight society, il.e., their is no societal prejudice against being heterosexual, well I don't know, it just does happen some times, as it did with me.

As I have tried to say, I think I was ALWAYS potentially bisexual. And now being straight suits me better. Maybe I still have the potential to be gay, I probably do. But for the foreseeable future I am functionally straight and it feels VERY good.

Hell, I don't know why, too much analysis, I am just not turned on by males any more, that is just the way I feel.

[Admin]

For a moment, let's put aside the debate as to whether or not gay men are "real" men.  A very interesting thought occurred to me.  For so many gay people, there never was a closet.  That's because they are so flamboyant and effeminate that there's no possible way anyone would ever assume they were straight.  These are the guys that grew up being bullied in school-- being called "faggot" and all sorts of horrible names. 

Then there are the so-called "straight-acting" gay guys.  These are the ones who, while they may not be John Wayne, don't typically endure anti-gay bullying.  They get asked the same questions when conversing with strangers as anyone else:  "Are you married?", "Do you have kids?"  I'm sure you all know the type I'm talking about.  I happen to be in that category myself.

I want to put you all on the spot and ask which one describes you?  I'm not trying to argue a point here, just theorizing that the more effeminate types are more likely to be 100% gay throughout their lives with absolutely no desire to ever change that, while the more masculine types are more likely to be sexually fluid.  I could be totally wrong, but it would be interesting to hear some thoughts on this.

[Matt777]

My  only comments to people who don't agree with me:
I don't have to justify anything. I post my thoughts and opinions; that is how this forum works. This is America and I'm allowed to feel, think, and say what I want to. Those who would censor my words must have very deep, unresolved issues and a whole lot of insecurity. I do not blast people whose opinions I disagree with. To those who rant and rave because you disagree with someone else's opinion, it's small-minded and not educated. I stand by my words. 

[Mia]

I want to put you all on the spot and ask which one describes you?  I'm not trying to argue a point here, just theorizing that the more effeminate types are more likely to be 100% gay throughout their lives with absolutely no desire to ever change that, while the more masculine types are more likely to be sexually fluid.  I could be totally wrong, but it would be interesting to hear some thoughts on this.

Well my theory is the opposite it seems... I think that the ones with more female energy are more sexually fluid whereas those with less female energy are more rigid in their sexuality